Official AMA Soybooru General

[Gemerald]

When he says line, he's obviously referring to bloodline, and cousins ARE inherently part of the bloodline, there's no debate in that so it would be referring to cousins, retard.

The opinion that Cousin marriage is Makruh (Not even Haram LOL!) is only taught in Shafi'i and Hanbali, or two of the four Sunni Muslim Schools. It isn't prohibited by the Qur'an. The link you posted earlier quotes Imam Shafi'i, the founder of the Shafi'i madhab, so it STILL does not prove cousin marriage is forbidden, just that it is "disliked" by a portion (< 50%) of Sunni muslims.
But islam prohibiting cousin marriage doesn't make sense when you consider that Muhammed married his cousin Zaynab bint Jahsh, Umar married his cousin Atikah bint Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nifayl, and Ali married Fatimah his first cousin once removed.

 

[Slopjakker]

Fuck thrembo88

 

[korg]

approve the posts janjans (aka warrior-z)

 

[Slopjakker]

 

[Warrior-Z]

approve the posts janjans (aka warrior-z)

On it.

The opinion that Cousin marriage is Makruh (Not even Haram LOL!) is only taught in Shafi'i and Hanbali, or two of the four Sunni Muslim Schools.

So it's over half of the Sunni school teachings? Cool.

It isn't prohibited by the Qur'an. The link you posted earlier quotes Imam Shafi'i

It doesn't have to be addressed by the Quran because HADITHS are supposed to be sources that can be used as an authority as well, in which most Muslims ALSO use hadiths as a source alongside the Quran, Shafi'i only further elaborated, Caliph Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said to MARRY unrelated people, which still correlates with cousin marriage.

But islam prohibiting cousin marriage doesn't make sense when you consider that Muhammed married his cousin Zaynab bint Jahsh, Umar married his cousin Atikah bint Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nifayl, and Ali married Fatimah his first cousin once removed.

I absolutely love how this would fit into a false dichotomy fallacy because you're comparing the prophet PBUH in which had SEVERAL circumstances, along with other religious figures, to an entire modern population of people in which WAS ADDRESSED for the future Muslims and people by the CALIPH may Allah be pleased with him, HIMSELF.

 

[Gemerald]

most Muslims ALSO use hadiths as a source alongside the Quran, Shafi'i only further elaborated, Caliph Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said to MARRY unrelated people, which still correlates with cousin marriage.

most Muslims

Evidently not, considering the almost 100% muslim Saudi Arabia has a >50% rate of consanguineous marriages. There is no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do.

 

[Warrior-Z]

Evidently not, considering the almost 100% muslim Saudi Arabia has a >50% rate of consanguineous marriages. There is no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do.

This brings us back to what I said, you're putting in Saudia Arabia to try to generalise Islam even though it doesn't even hold a fraction of the Muslims population, in which is almost 2 billion.
Another thing is that; A nation doesn't represent the framework of the religion, in which is the system, your last point brings us to a philosophical question, so what's the substantiation for that?

 

[Gemerald]

I absolutely love how this would fit into a false dichotomy fallacy because you're comparing the prophet PBUH in which had SEVERAL circumstances, along with other religious figures, to an entire modern population of people in which WAS ADDRESSED for the future Muslims and people by the CALIPH may Allah be pleased with him, HIMSELF.

Going back to this, wouldn't Mohammed's title of al-insan al-kamal ("The perfect man") actually make any action of his, including cousin marriage, a Sunnah?

This brings us back to what I said, you're putting in Saudia Arabia to try to generalise Islam even though it doesn't even hold a fraction of the Muslims population, in which is almost 2 billion.

Most if not all muslim countries have high cousin marriage rates. The rates are: 34% in Algeria, 46% in Bahrain, 33% in Egypt, 80% in Nubia (southern Egypt), 60% in Iraq, 64% in Jordan, 64% in Kuwait, 42% in Lebanon, 48% in Libya, 47% in Mauritania, 54% in Qatar, 67% in Saudi Arabia, 63% in Sudan, 40% in Syria, 39% in Tunisia, 54% in the United Arabic Emirates and 45% in Yemen [1]

 

[Lism]

Is it about the likes or the message? Pick your choice wisely, buddy.

I'm not jealous of his likes. "Spreading the message" for some soyjaks is good, but memes that exist for the sake of humor lose their power as they are spread. So when people like this get countless followers off of only posting content they had no hand in making, they are effectively parasites that live by vampirically sucking the memetic energy out of an image. Like a space shuttle slingshotting off of a large planet, it ever so slightly results in the slowing of the planet's orbit. Energy cannot be created or destroyed etc etc.

Clean is a bit of a stretch since Namefag drama has ALWAYS existed.

Early on it was 99% Chuds vs namefags, then it gradually became namefags vs namefags. Modern namefag stuff would have been extremely hated 2+ years ago

 

[Warrior-Z]

Going back to this, wouldn't Mohammed's title of al-insan al-kamal ("The perfect man") actually make any action of his, including cousin marriage, a Sunnah?

Al-Insan al-Kamil is a title describing Prophet Muhammad PBUH as being an unrivaled model of virtue in character, worship, and obedience to divine guidance. This does not imply that every single act of the Prophet is an obligatory Sunnah for the followers of Islam. Should that have been accepted, then sleeping in some position, certain foods above the others, or using a camel would become obligations. Because we know that there are, in the law of Islam, basically classified whatever actions might be obligatory, recommended, neutral, discouraged, or forbidden. Caliph Umar (RA), in more knowledgeable Companions, openly forbade cousin marriage since he was very worried about lineage health. If it was then an implied Sunnah to follow, so Umar would not protest against it. One action of the Prophet PBUH is imperatively not an invitation for every other member of society to do as he did.

Most if not all muslim countries have high cousin marriage rates. The rates are: 34% in Algeria, 46% in Bahrain, 33% in Egypt, 80% in Nubia (southern Egypt), 60% in Iraq, 64% in Jordan, 64% in Kuwait, 42% in Lebanon, 48% in Libya, 47% in Mauritania, 54% in Qatar, 67% in Saudi Arabia, 63% in Sudan, 40% in Syria, 39% in Tunisia, 54% in the United Arabic Emirates and 45% in Yemen [1]

Like I said, these countries have had people and culture, along with wars and second world-third world factors in which doesn't equal to the religious framework so lets focus on that.

 

[Lism]

On it.

So it's over half of the Sunni school teachings? Cool.

It doesn't have to be addressed by the Quran because HADITHS are supposed to be sources that can be used as an authority as well, in which most Muslims ALSO use hadiths as a source alongside the Quran, Shafi'i only further elaborated, Caliph Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said to MARRY unrelated people, which still correlates with cousin marriage.

I absolutely love how this would fit into a false dichotomy fallacy because you're comparing the prophet PBUH in which had SEVERAL circumstances, along with other religious figures, to an entire modern population of people in which WAS ADDRESSED for the future Muslims and people by the CALIPH may Allah be pleased with him, HIMSELF.

So is it the case that Mohammed (ﷺ) was in a special circumstance where cousin marriage is okay, but modern cousin marriage is not okay because we are in different circumstances? I agree with Gemerald that the Hadith you cited does not necessarily forbid cousin marriage, as the definition of a "cousin" and a "relative" is often different depending on the culture, and furthermore Hadith is not infallible. It sounds more like it just advises people to not limit themselves to it

 

[Gemerald]

Al-Insan al-Kamil is a title describing Prophet Muhammad PBUH as being an unrivaled model of virtue in character, worship, and obedience to divine guidance. This does not imply that every single act of the Prophet is an obligatory Sunnah for the followers of Islam. Should that have been accepted, then sleeping in some position, certain foods above the others, or using a camel would become obligations. Because we know that there are, in the law of Islam, basically classified whatever actions might be obligatory, recommended, neutral, discouraged, or forbidden. Caliph Umar (RA), in more knowledgeable Companions, openly forbade cousin marriage since he was very worried about lineage health. If it was then an implied Sunnah to follow, so Umar would not protest against it. One action of the Prophet PBUH is imperatively not an invitation for every other member of society to do as he did.

Who you choose to marry is a much more significant cultural practice than which position you choose to sleep in, which food you choose to eat, or whether you use a camel.
A concession I will make is that most of Muhammed's marriages were not consanguineous, so cousin marriage is not the standard in islam, but him holding the title of Al-Insan al-Kamil while being married to one of his cousins implies that marrying your cousin does not undermine or damage your character in islam.

Like I said, these countries have had people and culture, along with wars and second world-third world factors in which doesn't equal to the religious framework so lets focus on that.

This argument doesn't really work when the people shared across all those countries are muslims and the culture shared across all those countries is islam

 

[Lism]

The association between consanguinity and Islam is hard to deny

However, it is possible that it is partially coincidental. The Arabs (judging by the situation of Mohammed ﷺ) were engaged in endogamous marriage before the rise of Islam, and the Greeks describe certain family qualities of the middle east that mirror future Islam. The Persians and Egyptians were famous for the vice of consanguinity, but I've only ever heard about this in the context of brother-sister marriage, which is not really the focus here so much as first cousin marriage is.

I'm not Muslim by the way, I only use the PBUH symbol cuz it is cool.

 

[Warrior-Z]

So is it the case that Mohammed (ﷺ) was in a special circumstance where cousin marriage is okay, but modern cousin marriage is not okay because we are in different circumstances? I agree with Gemerald that the Hadith you cited does not necessarily forbid cousin marriage, as the definition of a "cousin" and a "relative" is often different depending on the culture, and furthermore Hadith is not infallible. It sounds more like it just advises people to not limit themselves to it

Yeah, circumstances play a part in the Islamic rulings. Some things were specific to the context of the Prophet, PBUH, and were not universally obligatory or even recommended. The Hadith I mentioned is voiced by one of the most respected companions, Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, being aware of the future generations' health, since we know that the consideration of harm is also how Islamic law derives rules. Also, your skepticism to the hadith is a little ironic, because the reliability of cousin marriage is discussed in BOTH hadith and scholarly consensus, not in the Quran alone. I know that no one was DIRECTLY saying that cousin marriage is haram, BUT THERE ARE statements discouraging it, saying it is the sunnah can be debated very easily, so not sure about the substance for that.

Who you choose to marry is a much more significant cultural practice than which position you choose to sleep in, which food you choose to eat, or whether you use a camel.
A concession I will make is that most of Muhammed's marriages were not consanguineous, so cousin marriage is not the standard in islam, but him holding the title of Al-Insan al-Kamil while being married to one of his cousins implies that marrying your cousin does not undermine or damage your character in islam.

This argument doesn't really work when the people shared across all those countries are muslims and the culture shared across all those countries is islam

Yeah, I never said that who you choose to marry isn't significant, but it was an example. Just because a thing wasn't stated directly to be haram does not mean it is recommended. The Prophet PBUH married about two women in which believed in different theological frameworks, does it mean every Muslim would be recommended to do just about that action? Al-Insan al-Kamil does not mean that every action is being RECOMMENDED to everyone. Let's say you were a great sportsman, and you do a dangerous stunt, is that recommended? No. The point is that you could say that cousin marriage is simply makruh, but it doesn't establish that it is a Sunnah.

Also again, you're confusing religious rulings with cultural practices. Islam is not equal to a nation's culture. If ‘Muslim countries’ automatically reflected PURELY ISLAM, then why do they differ on things like mahr rates, legal punishments, and inheritance laws?

 

[Gemerald]

Yeah, I never said that who you choose to marry isn't significant, but it was an example. Just because a thing wasn't stated directly to be haram does not mean it is recommended. The Prophet PBUH married about two women in which believed in different theological frameworks, does it mean every Muslim would be recommended to do just about that action? Al-Insan al-Kamil does not mean that every action is being RECOMMENDED to everyone. Let's say you were a great sportsman, and you do a dangerous stunt, is that recommended? No. The point is that you could say that cousin marriage is simply makruh, but it doesn't establish that it is a Sunnah.

Yeah i conceded that cousin marriage isnt a Sunnah in the post youre replying to, but cousin marriage cannot be makruh because then Muhammed would no longer be Al-Insan al-Kamil. A dangerous stunt is discouraged for the average person, yes, but not for moral reasons, like you're arguing cousin marriage is. You can be qualified to do something that is usually dangerous, but there is no "qualification" for doing something amoral.

Also again, you're confusing religious rulings with cultural practices. Islam is not equal to a nation's culture. If ‘Muslim countries’ automatically reflected PURELY ISLAM, then why do they differ on things like mahr rates, legal punishments, and inheritance laws?

True, islam does not represent the whole of those countries' cultures, but it is a significant shared cultural aspect of all those countries. As a result, when those countries all share a certain trait that is not as prevelant in other, less muslim countries, you can be highly confident that that trait and islam are correlated.

 

[_account]

The association between consanguinity and Islam is hard to deny
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However, it is possible that it is partially coincidental. The Arabs (judging by the situation of Mohammed ﷺ) were engaged in endogamous marriage before the rise of Islam, and the Greeks describe certain family qualities of the middle east that mirror future Islam. The Persians and Egyptians were famous for the vice of consanguinity, but I've only ever heard about this in the context of brother-sister marriage, which is not really the focus here so much as first cousin marriage is.

I'm not Muslim by the way, I only use the PBUH symbol cuz it is cool.

That part of the world is just horribly inbred as a result of it's age, Jews and Christians there have the same problem (albeit not as bad). Unfortunate side effect of everyone descending from 3 father's.

 

[Warrior-Z]

Yeah i conceded that cousin marriage isnt a Sunnah in the post youre replying to, but cousin marriage cannot be makruh because then Muhammed would no longer be Al-Insan al-Kamil. A dangerous stunt is discouraged for the average person, yes, but not for moral reasons, like you're arguing cousin marriage is. You can be qualified to do something that is usually dangerous, but there is no "qualification" for doing something amoral.

True, islam does not represent the whole of those countries' cultures, but it is a significant shared cultural aspect of all those countries. As a result, when those countries all share a certain trait that is not as prevelant in other, less muslim countries, you can be highly confident that that trait and islam are correlated.

Not really because that would take us to the DEFINITION of Al-Insan al-Kamil. The title does not mean that every action of the Prophet PBUH is automatically recommended. Let's take for say, the definition of makruh. The very definition of makruh, Makruh actions will not cause one to have a sin, but it is possible that one could gain more reward by avoiding them, there are reasons to avoid it according to Umar RA. They are actions which are better to be avoided by the rest of the PEOPLE.

And let me say this; For example, in Christian theology, Jesus was fasting for 40 days in the wilderness. A 40-day absolute fast (no food or water) is not something recommended for everyone due to very obvious reasons. This doesn't change Jesus' status within Christianity.

Likewise, cousin marriage being not haram but MAKRUH does not contradict the Prophet’s status as Al-Insan al-Kamil, because that would take us to the meaning of it.

And look, correlation does not equal causation. Just because Muslim majority countries share a trait doesn’t mean Islam is the reason behind it. For example, many Muslim countries have high corruption rates, are you going to say that Islam encourages corruption? No, because you know damn well what those same countries went through. The same applies to cousin marriage, many of these countries have tribal structures where marrying within the family ensures certain things and that would NOT be an Islamic mandate

 

[Swarthy]

There was a time that i was in a comment section(probally the post was about the countrywar) and then i argued to Aztecchicano.
Nigga, some random pedophile namefag(i don't remember xis name) showed his 'p gallery
View attachment 157019
the janjans deleted xis comment after.

remember when that nigger started spamming furry futa antimatter

 

[Ytsuken]

Why are my pm perms gone?

 

[Ytsuken]

Why are my pm perms gone?

What's so funny