Islam on Marriage and Sex: Troubling Stuff

[baqqrih]

I've been reading the Quran more in my free time every now and then, not only because I know some Muslims, both online (like from here, of course) and also from my school, and want to know more of what they believe, but also because of my personal curiosity regarding what I see as heresy, to better understand what false teachings attempt to misguide others away from The Lord Christ. Most of the stuff in the Quran I'm already rather acquainted with regarding how Islam stands on familiar topics; things like the stories of the Old Testament or how they view the Messiah, Jesus, for example. However, I've become more troubled in my perception of Islam just as plain heresy by a rather big issue that always seems to come up rather when I hear debates regarding Islam or other sorts of conversation regarding it, that makes me really not like it in comparison to the other heresies and false beliefs I've read up on. This isn't necessarily just about Muhammad and Aisha, but more-so the "culture" of the faith as a whole in regard to child marriage, and the Quranic disposition of it. People well-read on the Quran may already know, then, what I'm going to bring up, and that is a verse you can find in Surah At-Talaq, the sixty-fifth Surah, near the very beginning of it, that's giving advice on the marriage of women. This verse is the fourth of the Surah, and it reads (text taken from Dr. Mustafa Khattab's translation):
>As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery. And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them.
This just seems disgusting to me. Why does it brush this off as a normal thing, that those who have not undergone menstruation (children) are people who are okay to marry and have sex with? What the hell? Is this really thought of as acceptable? I thought a lot of this stuff was just drummed-up lies and it was just a few cases that weren't actually, really endorsed by Islam, but no, this is literally just pedophilia. Like, I knew of the Aisha thing, but I didn't know the Quran specifically endorses this in of itself. I've tried to understand this better with other commentary from the modern Muslim perception on the topic of child marriage, because I thought that maybe I am just confusing myself and getting things wrong, but this additional research only really reinforced my belief that there is disgusting stuff being endorsed and commanded here because of this teaching. The website "IslamQA" has a section about such a thing. I had to translate it since it was in Arabic, but, long-story short, its only concluding justification for when a married woman can be fucked is "when she can handle penetration". So, as long as the little girl can handle it, it is okay for her to be fucked, according to Islam. I mean, really? Is this really what is believed? This seems really fucking dreadful. Am I misunderstanding something here?

 

[basil]

muslims go to your school? that must seem awful.

 

[baqqrih]

muslims go to your school? that must seem awful.

It's only a few, they aren't any sizable population there.

 

[ILoveCoals]

long-story short, its only concluding justification for when a married woman can be fucked is "when she can handle penetration". So, as long as the little girl can handle it, it is okay for her to be fucked, according to Islam.

I just learned about this yesterday

 

[baqqrih]

I have to also ask, was God's intention for sex not to be the means to produce offspring? Even putting the obvious immorality of pedophilia aside, what ever could be the purposeful justification for Islam's endorsement here of sex with children? I'm just really confused, and still rather freaked out about this teaching.

 

[baqqrih]

View attachment 27214

What hadith is this?

 

[Xiuhcoyotl]

It's only a few, they aren't any sizable population there.

Same, only a few of them go to my school, and they're all girls.

 

[baqqrih]

I translated the webpage you posted. I have no clue

Ah, okay. I couldn't find it either from my first translation so I was wondering if you knew.

 

[Oot]

Yet another baqqrih fail, this is just like that time you thought you had an own with the greenbird story

 

[baqqrih]

Yet another baqqrih fail, this is just like that time you thought you had an own with the greenbird story

How have I failed?

 

[Oot]

How have I failed?

On this or how you mocked Islam for martyrs being turned into green birds during the period of Barzakh?

 

[baqqrih]

On this or how you mocked Islam for martyrs being turned into green birds during the period of Barzakh?

On this, but you could speak about the green bird thing after you tell me how I've failed here. I'm curious about that, too.

 

[Xiuhcoyotl]

>proceeds to lock the board for the 57th time

 

[Oot]

On this, but you could speak about the green bird thing after you tell me how I've failed here.

There's a reason this verse isn't really included in a lot of criticism against Islam, it's not a strong argument at all. Nowhere does it explicitly advocate for young women to go get married off. Some women have menstruation periods that are much later and the Arabic language in the verse does not refer to children at all. I don't know Arabic, but I remember seeing something about this verse specifically a while ago and could try and find it for you.

The green bird stuff was a fail because that's during the period of Barzakh, which is the waiting period between death and judgement day. It isn't permanent.

>proceeds to lock the board for the 57th time

I only do this when a thread gets derailed or if I deem it detrimental to the health of the schlog.

 

[baqqrih]

There's a reason this verse isn't really included in a lot of criticism against Islam, it's not a strong argument at all. Nowhere does it explicitly advocate for young women to go get married off. Some women have menstruation periods that are much later and the Arabic language in the verse does not refer to children at all. I don't know Arabic, but I remember seeing something about this verse specifically a while ago and could try and find it for you.

The green bird stuff was a fail because that's during the period of Barzakh, which is the waiting period between death and judgement day. It isn't permanent.

Thank you for clearing that up with the green birds. I wasn't aware, as I hadn't comprehended that it was a temporary thing, I thought it was simply some strange, immortal reward. Still, on the menstruation topic, I just felt that, alongside the other teachings I found regarding child marriage from sources like that IslamQA article I've linked, the implication my initial thoughts had must've therefore been true, as that's simply how the words sounded to me; that, if they have not menstruated yet, they must be so youthful as to have not had it yet as an average woman has, rather than simply having an abnormality that would make it happen later at an age that would not make them a child, and so that article only assisted me in thinking that. Still, I then have to ask, what are your thoughts on what that article has stated, as shown in SmallAnus' translation of it above, and from the rest of the article? Some of these teachings still seem to condone such perverted behavior, I'd say.

 

[Oot]

Thank you for clearing that up with the green birds. I wasn't aware, as I hadn't comprehended that it was a temporary thing, I thought it was simply some strange, immortal reward. Still, on the menstruation topic, I just felt that, alongside the other teachings I found regarding child marriage from sources like that IslamQA article I've linked, the implication my initial thoughts had must've therefore been true, as that's simply how the words sounded to me; that, if they have not menstruated yet, they must be so youthful as to have not had it yet as an average woman has, rather than simply having an abnormality that would make it happen later at an age that would not make them a child, and so that article only assisted me in thinking that. Still, I then have to ask, what are your thoughts on what that article has stated, as shown in SmallAnus' translation of it above, and from the rest of the article? These teachings still seem to condone such perverted behavior, I'd say.

That whole section details marriage, if it condoned child marriage it'd just have done so specifically. I found this website online that better explains it, similar to what I had seen a while back on the 'cord (religious/politic debate server) https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/

Ay yi yi, these gringo Christianos es so obsessed about mi... don't they know child marriage es in la Bible y el Talmud too? No mames way, holmes...

 

[baqqrih]

That whole section details marriage, if it condoned child marriage it'd just have done so specifically. I found this website online that better explains it, similar to what I had seen a while back on the 'cord (religious/politic debate server) https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/

Ay yi yi, these gringo Christianos es so obsessed about mi... don't they know child marriage es in la Bible y el Talmud too? No mames way, holmes...

Thank you for that source.

 

[Oot]

@Xiuhcoyotl Let's go find some Black Queens together

 

[baqqrih]

@Oot I once again thank you for that source on 65:4. It explained things well, how that phrase can be misunderstood without the context of the Arabic language. One more thing to bug you about, however. Unrelated to 65:4, I'm still confused on the wording in the IslamQA article that shook me up regarding the child marriage thing, which ends by specifically using a statement that, from all of my translations of it, from Google to Yandex to DeepL, specifically uses the parameter of "if she can bear it" or "if she can tolerate it" or other such similar terms. Isolating the word in question, it is "تطيق" or "tutiq", which, from all of my translations of it individually, seems to have the definite meaning of a mental/social tolerance to something, rather than physical fitness for something. This makes it therefore sound like they are condoning intercourse with a child spouse as long as the child spouse can tolerate it. Am I interpreting this statement that they are saying in that article correctly? I know you're not fluent in Arabic, of course, but I think you could still help me comprehend this meaning better.

 

[Stephen]

I have a feeling about Islam, I don’t know how it is backed up by the Quran, but it seems that Islam bends towards overturning secular/non islamic law on age of consent and child marriage, while in Christianity they don't advocate for breaking or overthrowing the secular law in those regards. I don't hear about the Pope, or eastern Patriarchs, or any fringe sect advocating for an overthrow of secular society the way Islamic sects do. Christians seem to bend to the law in that regard, and they certainly don't support sex with pre-pubescent girls.